Career Paths for Scrum Masters and Product Owners

In this episode of Definitely Maybe Agile, hosts Peter Maddison and David Sharrock tackle an often overlooked but critical topic: career progression for Scrum Masters and Product Owners. They explore how organizations initiate these crucial Agile roles but frequently fail to consider their long-term evolution within the company structure.

The discussion contrasts the divergent career trajectories of these two roles. For Product Owners, a clearer path exists from managing individual products to becoming Chief Product Owners and potentially Line of Business managers, though challenges arise when the role lacks proper autonomy or is treated as a part-time responsibility. Meanwhile, Scrum Masters face a more ambiguous journey, with traditional progression into Agile coaching roles becoming increasingly limited in many organizations despite the valuable skills they develop.

Peter and Dave highlight the critical importance of demonstrating value and making contributions visible, particularly for Scrum Masters whose impact often remains behind the scenes. They also discuss how understanding financial aspects of the business becomes increasingly crucial as professionals advance in either career path.

Key Takeaways:

• Product Owners have clearer progression paths toward leadership positions, but organizations must properly position and empower the role from the beginning to enable this growth.
• Scrum Masters develop highly valuable skills in facilitating delivery and optimizing organizational flow, but need to actively demonstrate their impact to create career advancement opportunities.
• Both roles require increasingly strategic thinking about business value and financial outcomes to progress into higher leadership positions within organizations.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Career Progression in Agile
• 3:35 Product Owner Career Path Challenges
• 8:25 Scrum Master Career Evolution Issues
• 13:47 Reconciling Traditional and Agile Paths
• 18:57 Demonstrating Value as Scrum Masters

Transcript

Peter: 0:04

Welcome to Definitely Maybe Agile, the podcast where Peter Maddison and David Sharrock discuss the complexities of adopting new ways of working at scale. Hello Dave, how are you today Very?

Dave: 0:15

good, very good. Looking forward to our conversation, actually, because I think this is I'm not going to call it back to our roots, but I think it's an often ignored topic which is very easy to start people on it's career progression for scrum masters and product owners. It's really easy for us to kick things off and support this role as a product owner, this role as a scrum master, but there's consequences years down the line which are rarely taken into consideration.

Peter: 0:46

And I think there's this sort of meta conversation. Here's a couple of roles that we see as necessary in supporting the operating model within an organization that we would promote that really generates the best outcomes. And then this leads you down that path of well, how do these roles evolve? What's the career progression for? Well, how do these roles evolve? What's the career progression for them? Where do those roles go? Where do they grow into within an organization? And so I think it's a very interesting topic and a very interesting area to explore. So where would you like to?

Dave: 1:19

start, let me one of the reasons I think it's super important to explore this one is we sort of select or look for very talented individuals because those roles both product ownership and the scrum master role in an organization that's shifting to an agile way of working, both of those require leadership skills. They require soft skills and true leadership skills. That any organization should be encouraging and be very happy to see these roles grow in their skill set in that leadership direction. So they're kind of the beginning of a path towards leadership is the way I always think about those. The challenge is that I think from a product owner perspective there is a really clear path to significant leadership roles in an organization. Great, there are definitely headaches with that that we can talk about. And I think the scrum master role had this sort of vague idea. We kind of put an opaque somewhat of a path towards leadership in that space. But I think that's more and more being cut off in many organizations. The value of that leadership progression is just not seen in many organizations.

Peter: 2:50

So let's talk through what you're describing there. If we think of a product owner, a product owner very much has the role of helping understand, help direct the product. They've got a set of skills that they'll build over time as they start to understand both what needs to happen with the product, help a director build out the roadmap, help breed the direction and understanding for the product, and there's a progression there where potentially they progress into a chief product owner where they're managing other product owners and are looking at overall direction of a suite of products and they're helping build that together and then from there into sort of a line of business owner where they're looking at the more holistically across a line of business what are all of the different things within that line of business and how do those start to evolve with time. And so there's that sort of natural progression for product owners. So let's start there with the product owner role and we can talk about the Scrum Master one later in the call. Where do you see the problems starting to arise with that journey?

Dave: 3:51

I really like the way you've described it because, as you're describing it, all I'm thinking is it's this hugely valuable role in an organization which is the translator.

Dave: 4:01

They sit at the connection or the bridge between technology digital delivery, if you like and the business and what the business needs are. And so, as you describe that role and I just throw in value stream in there as part of that just pre-line manager role, line line of business manager role but as you go through that journey, you can imagine how that product owner becoming product manager, chief product owner, whatever the nomenclature might be they're getting stronger and stronger. They're understanding literally profit and loss. They're really understanding how that product or suite of products generates value for the organization, generates value for the customer. So at that point, at the end of the journey, it's really clear how they're stepping into these more and more advanced leadership roles. At the beginning of the journey is where the weaknesses and in many, many cases, product owners end up being seen in some like many cases, as this sort of order taker which doesn't have the foundations for growth into that mediator between business and delivery.

Peter: 5:15

The way I always look at this is you can see whether or not the product owners have the autonomy and to actually be able to say no, to work, for example, to be able to say this is the direction that the product's going and I understand the strategic goals and making sure that we're aligned to that and then we're building the product in the right direction and that I'm including all the stakeholder opinions.

Peter: 5:36

I'm looking both externally and internally as to where we should be going, and so that intermediary role is absolutely critical in product space, but they often don't have the autonomy to fully take that on.

Peter: 5:50

There's also this piece where they are not necessarily doing this as a full-time role, so it's only a part of what they do and they've got other things they should be doing on the business side, and one of the problems that I I see there often is that where their kpis are set are often more geared towards the things which are on the on their other job, and this product owner bit's just kind of this side of the desk irritant that they've sort of like being half-assed to do because, um, it asked for somebody who could have a product on the hat and so we had to give it to somebody else. We gave it to this person over here and they've never really been sort of upskilled in or shown how to do the role. And so to grow that role into what it could potentially become and the benefits it could have to the organization with that really deep understanding of how to solve problems for your customer with those products, is much, much harder to achieve.

Dave: 6:47

Yeah, I mean we can keep going into. You know there's a lot of those skills or expectations that we would have on a product owner as they grow into that role. But, to your point, in many cases there's a bit of a gap between between, say, a VP of product or somebody who's firmer and more aligned with the strategy and the actual operational delivery of that where you can end up losing a lot of that guidance and role modeling to get people to build up the skills to be able to take on that responsibility.

Dave: 7:19

And we're seeing this more and more as the sort of product management versus product owner debate plays itself out. Because there's an element of well, the product owner is just dealing with a backlog with a bunch of stories and work items in it, and if we tell them what those stories and work items are, where's the value in that product owner over the long term? Well, there isn't, because they're not in a position to continuously learn and get feedback and get stronger about understanding the customer's needs, understanding the organization's strategy and bringing them together correctly.

Peter: 7:55

Yeah, I mean they're effectively in some of those roles really a glorified BA and that's not a separate role for that, but they're not really.

Dave: 8:05

And it can be a great place to start as a product owner, right? If? If you're getting the, the mentoring and the support and they you know that environment, it can be a really good beginning point on the journey. But there can be problems with that as we're describing now. What about scrrum Masters? That one's slightly different. It's almost 180 degrees flipped right.

Peter: 8:27

Yeah, so Scrum Masters. The traditional roadmap for a Scrum Master, going back a decade or so, would have been that a Scrum Master would evolve from being a Scrum Master for one team into being a Scrum Master for multiple teams, to potentially being scrum master for a team of teams and then from there into an agile coaching role and then maybe into an enterprise agile coach, looking at like the strategic adoption of agile practices or operating models across the organization, and there was a kind of a natural growth of skills as the scrum master brought on more capabilities and more knowledge across the various different disciplines that make up an agile coaching role. And, as you know, that's not really how things are going today.

Dave: 9:15

Well, and I think this is I mean to begin with if we launch a team or we have a number of teams, the role of the Scrum Master is very clear and very you know. It's. Let me call it Scrum Master or Agile Project Manager I mean this terminology has been shifting in the last few years but the role of somebody associated with one or two or three teams, that is, helping them get things across the line and helping them develop a capability of being able to deliver consistently with the right level of quality and so on. That role is understood and it's easy to kick that off. Where it gets more difficult is what do they do as they gain experience after a year or two, as they go to?

Dave: 9:59

Okay, now they may be managing a team of Scrum Masters. Maybe managing a team of scrum masters, that's pretty clear. But then it kind of runs out because if the organization doesn't value coaching and by that I mean like looking across the enterprise for managing flow, for really being able to, in a lean context, look at the entire organization and its value stream and lean that out and understand what it takes to get things from one end to the other consistently at the right level of quality at the right pace of delivery. Well, that role is rarely recognized in most organizations. It's not valued in most organizations.

Peter: 10:43

Today. I think it has been at some places in the past.

Dave: 10:48

I know it's actually kind of really frustrating because I think both of us this is, this is a sweet spot, it's a passion area that we end up gravitating towards valuing, really seeing this huge impact that can be had in organizations and yet that kind of role has not really, or the need for that skill set is not recognized or valued in the same way that we think maybe it should be valued.

Peter: 11:16

And I do wonder whether it still exists, but under different labels, and I think it does in some organizations. It's the process optimization, this type of role that sometimes has replaced, like the agile coach, and that's where you start to see this. There's still a need to figure out organizationally what's getting in the way of us being able to deliver work in a meaningful manner and start to align across these various different areas. There's perhaps where there's been a very strong traditional project management plan upslant type methodology in place that the scrum masters are the team project manager, and so I need a sort of team of team project manager and I need a project manager that's looking at this across the organization, and organizations haven't necessarily always done a good job of reconciling these worlds and you end up with either it works within one area, they see great results, then they try to scale it and it doesn't, and then we get into the whole scaling problem. But regardless, we run into this what is the career progression for a Scrum Master in these organizations?

Dave: 12:33

And we should actually come back to that whole career progression.

Dave: 12:37

So I think if we talk about product owners, it's difficult to kind of start the journey, but once the journey is going, the skill sets are valued and recognized in an organization and the pathway becomes pretty clear. In terms of a scrum master, it's sort of the opposite. We can end up with that role, place people in it and they can be brilliant, right and they're developing skills that you and I would recognize as immensely valuable to the organization, both in terms of the leadership skills and the softer skills and the people skills in terms of that classic thing of a scrum master leading without authority and all of these other things that come along as you develop those skills as a coach, coupled with an appreciation for flow in an organization, for the importance of some sort of continuous optimization of how value is delivered in the organization. So all of those are really valuable things. However, there's no natural place for them to be aiming for in an organization in many situations. So where does that leave that scrum master a few years down the line?

Peter: 13:49

Well, I think it is going to land on where does the organization decide to go. And there are still organizations where there is that evolution I was describing earlier where a scrum master could basically end up with a larger domain of responsibility. They've got a larger number of teams that they're responsible for, a larger scope of delivery that they're responsible for. They're essentially looking at how do I ensure a flow across a larger domain within the organization, and that is that kind of evolution from a coaching perspective of the organization. It may not necessarily go through what has been the titles, I think is one of the things that we're starting to see, but a scrum master could position themselves and target roles that enable them to use those skills to help the organization still achieve some of those same end goals. Just, perhaps we need to rethink what we call those roles under the current sort of climate or direction or working out how do we align this into what that particular organization's nomenclature is or how they're thinking of?

Dave: 15:01

delivery. I think your mention of delivery is you're just coming to the end there that and I agree with everything that you're saying that mention of delivery just highlights that as a scrum master or a scrum master of scrum masters, like as that progression moves, it's really important to show the value of what that role is achieving, and we've had this. This is something that we've discussed a number of times about. We we can't, because so much of the role of the scrum master is leading from behind, so it's not visible. It it's often, you know, people don't say we achieved this because of this Scrum Master that created the environment that allowed us to do these things, so it's not called out and recognized.

Dave: 15:47

So one of the critical things as a Scrum Master or a Scrum Master of Scrum Masters is making that connection with the results being achieved by the part of the organization they're working in, with their involvement, whether it's, you know, continuously improving the environment, whatever it might be. There's a number of different things that would be addressed there. I also think there's an element of really focusing on profit and loss and specifically around cost and managing costs, because in so, so many and this is basically as you move up in an organization, money becomes the, the sort of currency, literally, that is used to determine how you move up through the organization, because you need to understand the finances of an organization and many scrum masters come from the view, the position of being in a cost center. So they have to appreciate that and understand what they're achieving by, you know, optimizing how work is being delivered and so on. So I think those two things are often downplayed, which will at least begin opening up the you know, the horizons of where they may be able to end up as they progress.

Peter: 16:56

Yeah, I think you bring up a very, very good point there is ensuring that the value you're adding is seen and that you're as a part of the delivery, you are a part of the success, because otherwise it becomes very easy to say, well, that was an additional cost we don't need. Let's get rid of that and we'll still achieve the same things. Okay, so how should we wrap this up? With three points for our listeners today, Dave Right.

Dave: 17:23

So I feel that on the product ownership side there's less to wrap up, or at least it's a single point, which is start off positioning that role of product owner in the right way, and they will naturally grow into leaders within the organization that are valued and have opportunities to move into those as they progress in their career, as long as they're growing and developing and understanding what their roles are.

Dave: 17:50

So there, it's all about launching the beginning step, if you like. In the world of the Scrum Master, I think there are two things that jump to mind. One is the organization leadership-wise has to think about. Do they value a specialist that can look at an organization and optimize how that is aligned to delivering customer value? Do they value that sort of appreciation of delivery from that perspective of flow optimization, if I describe it that way. That's the first thing, and that comes from the organization itself recognizing we need some sort of permanent skill set, whether it's in a process optimization group, transformation group, whatever it might be, but there's some place where there's a natural place for experts to go to. And then I think the second one is, as a scrum master, be very conscious about drawing attention to the influence and the impact that they have in their roles. As you progress through that career path, what would you add?

Peter: 18:54

I would add, I think, the transferable skills piece of it that we were touching on, that you're developing as a scrum master, a set of very transferable skills that can be applied to quite a lot of different disciplines within the organization, and ensuring that that's well understood and well known can be quite valuable as well. Well as always. Really enjoyed the conversation, dave. Quite valuable as well. Well as always, really enjoyed the conversation today, and if anybody wishes to contact us, they can at feedback at definitelymaybeagilecom, and I really look forward to next time. Till next time. Thanks again, peter. You've been listening to Definitely May Be Agile, the podcast where your hosts, Peter Maddison and David Sharrock, focus on the art and science of digital agile and DevOps at scale. You, you, thank you.